Sunday, April 12, 2009
Are humans born with a sinful nature?
This is my first blog on many biblical theology questions that I am starting to explore. I think that churches today have somewhat skewed what the Bible really says. After listening to a sermon found on www.nogreaterjoy.org by Michael Pearl I have come to question doctrine that I have been taught and realized that faith in God should be my own. Therefore I have begun studying it deeply. I will be the first to say that I don't have all the answers, but, I think it will be fun to spur people on to get into God's word themselves to figure it out. I invite you to come with me on a quest to find what God really wants for us. I encourage you to ask questions and let people know what you find. The first question at hand is, are humans born with a sinful nature? Most christians would say yes. I on the other hand do not. I believe that if every human was born with a sinful nature then sin wouldn't be bad. It would be natural. Would God put a natural desire to sin in us from birth? Then judge us for it? What do you think...
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Hey Bro! Very thought-provoking topic. One thing I would like to see more of is a scriptural basis for your logic. There are tons of verses that support the idea that we are born into sin because of Adam and Eve's fall. In fact, I think this passage sums up your counter-argument best:
ReplyDelete"All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!" (Ecclesiastes 9:2-4)
So we see that no matter who we are, saved or unsaved, we are bound to the same fate of being born into sin. The true test is if we recognize that sin and turn to God for repentance. We are not judged by God if we recognize His sovereignty. What do you think??
Kyle
Ezekiel 18:18-20 (English Standard Version)
ReplyDelete18As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19"Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
I would agree that all will sin, and all need a Savior, but we cannot continue to blame our propensity to sin on a "sinful nature" that has been passed on to us. All that came upon Adam and onto all men was the physical death of the flesh. A question would be, did God create Adam with a sinful nature? I would say "no". Then where did the sinful nature enter the picture? Adam chose to sin and by doing so, did not change his nature. He changed his relationship with God. God withdrew from the human race at that moment because God cannot be where sin is. I would say that every human is born separate from God, but not into a sinful nature. If you look throughout the bible, it never mentions sinful nature anywhere. If we are born with a sinful nature, then come to Christ, we are new creatures right? Then, at that time do we have 2 natures? One that sins and one that does righteousness? Or just the new nature? And if we truly are regenerate creatures with a new nature how then can we pass a sinful nature on to our children? Some more to chew on.
Here is my response:
ReplyDelete"I would agree that all will sin, and all need a Savior, but we cannot continue to blame our propensity to sin on a 'sinful nature' that has been passed on to us."
I do still believe that we are born with a sinful nature, but I do not believe it is right to blame our wrongdoings on that nature, like you say. Genesis 8:21 says "The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: 'Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.'"
"Then where did the sinful nature enter the picture?"
Now we're talking about a deeper theological issue than just man being born into sin. Satan sinned against God while he was an angel in heaven, so the question is 'Did God create Sin? If God created all things, does that mean He created evil as well?" That's a tough one that I'm not sure we will ever know the answer to.
"Adam chose to sin and by doing so, did not change his nature. He changed his relationship with God. God withdrew from the human race at that moment because God cannot be where sin is. I would say that every human is born separate from God, but not into a sinful nature."
If God cannot be where sin is (meaning He can be where sin is not), and if we aren't born with a sinful nature, then why are will still born separate from God? That is implying that God is with us until the very first time we sin, then God separates from us. I think our entire lives, and the entire story of the Bible, is about repairing and rebuilding the gateway between us and God. God trying to reach out to a fallen humanity, and a fallen humanity trying to reach out to God.
"If you look throughout the bible, it never mentions sinful nature anywhere."
That is correct. It never uses the exact words "sinful nature". But it does mention things such as "the heart is evil" and the "wicked flesh". This implies an in-born nature of evil.
"If we are born with a sinful nature, then come to Christ, we are new creatures right? Then, at that time do we have 2 natures? One that sins and one that does righteousness? Or just the new nature?"
Correct, we are new creatures. But using the word "nature" is implying we must be either one way or the other. We are born with the capacity to do both sin and good. God hold us accountable not to the nature, but to the actions. When we are born again in Christ, Romans 6:6 says "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—". This means that we were born with a sinful self, and that Christ's blood covers our sin. Not that it gets rid of it or makes it disappear, but that God no longer holds our sinful nature against us if we truly accept His grace. Ephesians 4:22 also says "You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires" which again implies that we are born into sin.
Rick 1: I would agree that all will sin, and all need a Savior, but we cannot continue to blame our propensity to sin on a 'sinful nature' that has been passed on to us."
ReplyDeleteKyle:I do still believe that we are born with a sinful nature, but I do not believe it is right to blame our wrongdoings on that nature, like you say. Genesis 8:21 says "The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: 'Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.'"
Rick 2: This verse comes from the story of Noah after he has made a sacrifice to the Lord. In the context of sinful nature God destroys all but Noah and his family. This begs the question, “If people are born with a sinful nature how could humanity have gotten to the point where God decided to destroy them? How could a sinful nature become worse over time? If “every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood” because they were born that way, then how do we explain the good that non-believers do? If every human is born with an innate sinful nature then why do we still have some morals and convictions before coming to Christ? To say that we are born with a sinful nature is to say we are born with no moral compass. Or a moral compass pointed toward sin. If that is the case there should be NO good action coming from a sinful nature. Right?
Rick 1: "Then where did the sinful nature enter the picture?"
Kyle: Now we're talking about a deeper theological issue than just man being born into sin. Satan sinned against God while he was an angel in heaven, so the question is 'Did God create Sin? If God created all things, does that mean He created evil as well?" That's a tough one that I'm not sure we will ever know the answer to.
Rick 2: I believe that God did not create sin but he allowed it.
Rick 1: "Adam chose to sin and by doing so, did not change his nature. He changed his relationship with God. God withdrew from the human race at that moment because God cannot be where sin is. I would say that every human is born separate from God, but not into a sinful nature."
Kyle: If God cannot be where sin is (meaning He can be where sin is not), and if we aren't born with a sinful nature, then why are will still born separate from God? That is implying that God is with us until the very first time we sin, then God separates from us. I think our entire lives, and the entire story of the Bible, is about repairing and rebuilding the gateway between us and God. God trying to reach out to a fallen humanity, and a fallen humanity trying to reach out to God.
Rick 2: I agree with what you are saying about our entire life struggle. I believe that the struggle of a Christian is between the desires of the body or flesh and the spirit that God puts in us at regeneration or rebirth. It is the means of sanctification. I think I was vague with the separation of God. I mean that God separated himself from the human race and no longer dwelled among them as he did with Adam before the fall. Essentially, regaurdless of what nature were born with, we are separate from God at birth.
Rick 1: "If you look throughout the bible, it never mentions sinful nature anywhere."
Kyle: That is correct. It never uses the exact words "sinful nature". But it does mention things such as "the heart is evil" and the "wicked flesh". This implies an in-born nature of evil.
Rick 2: If because of Adam’s sin we automatically inherited a sinful nature or in-born nature of evil then would every man by default, automatically inherit the saving grace of Christ’s death and resurrection? Romans 5:19 states, “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Rick 1: "If we are born with a sinful nature, then come to Christ, we are new creatures right? Then, at that time do we have 2 natures? One that sins and one that does righteousness? Or just the new nature?"
Kyle: Correct, we are new creatures. But using the word "nature" is implying we must be either one way or the other. We are born with the capacity to do both sin and good. God hold us accountable not to the nature, but to the actions.
Rick 2: That being said, we would be held accountable by God for acting upon our inherited sin nature? Or is it that we are held accountable by our actions toward sin, which is against the Creator’s intention for human nature? If we have the capacity to do sin and good does that imply that our nature is not really the fault but our choice toward sin? Unless you are saying that before we are new creatures we can only do sin. In which case how do we account for the good done by unregenerate gentiles or heathens?
Kyle: When we are born again in Christ, Romans 6:6 says "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—". This means that we were born with a sinful self, and that Christ's blood covers our sin. Not that it gets rid of it or makes it disappear, but that God no longer holds our sinful nature against us if we truly accept His grace. Ephesians 4:22 also says "You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires" which again implies that we are born into sin.
Rick 2: In context of Eph 4:22… “which is being corrupted” implies that it did not start in a full corrupted state. If we inherit sin then we inherit the sins of our fathers and their fathers and so on. If that is the case then each new generation is more wicked than the previous. Which brings the statement, “If each generation inherits the sin and nature of their forefathers, then good would have been extinct long ago.”
Thanks for getting us organized, Rick! Ok, we are getting off track. Let's go back to the words "sinful nature" which we will replace with the words "the inevitability of sin". Agreed? I am sure that you would agree that we are born with the inevitability that we will sin. What causes this? Do you think that we are born perfect, and then over time corrupted by sin?
ReplyDeleteI would have to say I do. Our stances really are so close that it is hard to expalin. Basically we both believe that no matter what we are sinners in need of a savior. It is how we get there that we differ. What causes the downward spiral into sin is our choice when presented with temptation. We are weak beings in the face of temptation. We choose sin because it is the fleshly desire, it is pleasing, it is at our fingertips. Sin is essentially a humans kryptonite. We are born with the inability to overcome sin (separate from God). Christ is our only hope to overcome the power of sin. To say that we are born with a sinful nature and not an inevitability to sin is condemning all young childern and aborted babies to hell.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 19:13-15
Kinda harsh but I have to end on that note...time for work..
"What causes the downward spiral into sin is our choice when presented with temptation. We are weak beings in the face of temptation. We choose sin because it is the fleshly desire, it is pleasing, it is at our fingertips."
ReplyDeleteYes, but what makes us choose it? What in our hearts pushes us towards choosing sin? By acknowledging a "fleshly desire" like you say, aren't you agreeing that we are born with sin?
"To say that we are born with a sinful nature and not an inevitability to sin is condemning all young childern and aborted babies to hell."
I can see where you would think my theory supports this statement. However, I do believe that God is a just God and that there is such thing as an "age of accountability", meaning a designated age that God doesn't hold a child's sin against them. Check it out:
The Bad News:
Psalms 51:5-7 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Psalms 58:3-5 - "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."
So...we are born with sin. The good news for all of those that are too young to acknowledge this...
1st Corinthians 7:14 - "For the Unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the Husband: else were your children unclean, but now are they Holy."
Deuteronomy 1:39 - "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."
I believe the Matthew reference is Christ using children as an analogy as to how we should approach the throne of God.